Transcript of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIYGZyVqklY

0:02
So, Nikico Saling, Nikico Salangaros has a friend in Ecuador
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where there is a massive project proposed.
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Let's pull the Well, you know, before we show that, I wanted to ask you something. So, one time you shared something about it was like the rules
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for a plaza. It was something about there should be mixed use so people can
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walk there and it was certain rules and you said that these rules for these rules for a plaza have been lost.
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Hello friends. Right. Oh here is Niko from Ecuador. Good good to see you Nikos again and
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good to see you.
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[snorts] So, you got to see those pictures I sent. Yes, we have them. And they have been
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eyetracked. Actually, we have been they have been analyzed and we're going to uh we're going to
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Yes. present the analysis for the world. That is very exciting. Oh, no. By they've been analyzed by
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Alexander Slavdas. Yes. Alexandra Lavves who is one of the
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leading architectural theorists today who happens to be a PhD neuroscientist.
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And here is our guest Dimitri Kim. Yes. Um an architect who enjoys and likes
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what contemporary architecture is doing, but he's welcome and we debate him.
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Awesome. So, okay. So, let me pull up the images. Are we missing some people?
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We'll see. Alexandros cannot come. I don't know about near and and but we're going to discuss a specific project
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today that was sent to us by Nikico from Ecuador. This is a new museum.
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And I'm glad that you're here because then you can um you can um make the case
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for why this is a nice building. Well, we will make the case why this is a terrible building.
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Well, I'm glad I'm moving the opposition. Thank you.
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So, uh, Nico, can you give us the background? What is this building? Is it built? Is it proposed? Where is it going
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to be? So, this building is the winner of a public contest
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done by the Ecuadorian ministry. They just combined the Ministry of Sports,
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Education, and Culture, I think. Um and they they came up with this big
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investment. It's a hund00 million investment here in Kito for the National
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Museum. This is where the most important pieces of archaeology are going to be in
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in all of Ecuador. And this is the project winner. It's one I believe
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Monday they announced the winner. And there has been a hu huge public um
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opposition to the winner. People of all walks of life have seen the the renders
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and have made very vocal opposition. And a incredible conversation about
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aesthetics and beauty is is going on in in Ecuador right now because of this.
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Well, before we begin, you mentioned the figure of $100 million. Uh, Ecuador is
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is struggling with its economy. It has a collapsing um [snorts] networks,
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electricity, uh, infrastructure, uh, educational system, hospital system.
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So, this is this is a a huge investment for the economy, the size of the economy
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of Ecuador. Absolutely. it um it is coming also
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amidst a bunch of corruption scandals from the current government who are
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unable to buy okay but we don't want to touch that we we're just going to analyze the the uh
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the suitability of this for a public building that's supposed to uh represent
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um progressive architecture in Kito and this is public use this is a national
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museum right so this is for the public and also for tourists
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Exactly. So, um, can we can we start to analyze this and you know, we're lucky to have
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an Susman, the the world's authority on VAS, visual attention scans. So, these
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visual attention scans were performed by Alexa Loveless. But, uh, we have an here. So, can you um run us through some
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of these scans? You're muted. You're muted.
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You're muted. Yeah, we have to refresh the window.
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But they're all going directly to the people. And it's very clever to put people in renderings in architectural renderings.
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We can hear you and
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You have to refresh the window. You have to refresh the window so we can
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hear you because we cannot hear you. So while Ann does this um I will start
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to to explain some of these. So So show some So let's start to go through them.
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Okay. So this is so so this is I guess this is a um longd distance view of the
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National Museum. It is one boxy building and I see there's a
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uh very um it looks like a one-story extension to the right
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and there are these huge holes which are not really windows because they're just
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huge holes and the windows I see behind them the glass windows. So, so the the
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first the first visual attent if you advance one.
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Uh this is just the uh Okay. So, this is the um um sequence of uh of significant
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eye positions. The eye goes to the one of those large holes in the side of the
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building, but then skips to a car in the parking lot and then goes to another car in the parking lot and then goes to a
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person uh just in front of that uh lowrise structure. So, uh it it
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effectively avoids looking at the at the giant building that is the museum. This is not a good sign to begin with. So,
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even from the beginning, we don't. And uh are you back with the audio?
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No. Still not. Still not. Yeah. One time I had to refresh the window like five times for it to work.
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Okay. So, let's go to the next one. I think the heat map or close the close the whole window and reopen hit the link again maybe.
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[snorts] But come back and we need you. Yes.
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Okay. Oh, so here is the percentage of interest that the eye spends. So we
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see okay 98% goes to that top
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um cut out not really window the top cutout
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and then 98% goes to that uh cutout in the middle
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uh which includes some of the um uh some of the uh uh region going down to the
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parking lot and then 83% goes to trees in front. Okay, trees attract the eye
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because of our revolution. Uh and then 64% go to um to to other
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regions, 76% to to unrelated things. But uh again
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the main structure of the proposed national museum is avoided. It it it does not attract the
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eye. It's like it's not there. This is so this is again a a very
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serious warning of something is not right. Can we go to the next one?
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Oh yeah, statues. As an pointed out that they had put the uh the big puppy by Jeff Kun at the Guggenheim
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build goes to the statue. Oh yeah, there's a statue there. So
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that's what's attracting. Yeah, we we cannot see it very very nicely, but there seems to be a big statue there.
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So, it's attracting the eye, but not but not the building. Okay. So, this this and and and always the eye goes to
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fixate this huge opening on on the side of the of the museum,
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which I I don't know what it represents, but but it's attracting there, and I don't see why. It's not the entrance is
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not attracting. Okay. And the parking lot is attracting. It's probably the contrast and the edge
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condition. Right. Right. Well, we know that. We know that. However, the the rules of
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human scale architecture tell you that the eye should be attracted by the
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entrance. So, people can see it by psychologically and and and
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neuroesthetically by approaching from all directions and from all distances. They should see the entrance. So, they
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should focus towards going towards the entrance. here. Uh I don't know where the entrance is. I assume it's some a
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little corner in on the bottom here, but it's it's not it's not properly designed. It's breaking uh the the first
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law of architecture for for any building to attract uh users.
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Okay. Uh so this is the heat map and again we see yes the red for those
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readers who are new uh for those listeners who are new the red represents the most intense
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um focus of the eye uh and this is not very good. Why is it not very good?
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Because a a a well uh um designed building that you connect to viscerally,
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the eye will go all over the building. So there'll be sort of bluish green all
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over the building and the hot spot which is the red should be the most important
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feature which is the entrance. So here again we see the reversal. the the building is not scanned because u that
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light blue just goes all over the place. The buildings in the back, the sky, the parking lot in front, the buildings on
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the side and the hotspots are that those two punched in structures namely on the
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top top left and in the middle on the on the on the main face in the middle. So again those two which uh which really
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have no design um no compositional and design value are attracting the um uh
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the eye. Okay, here is one view and we see that
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um yes, the eye is attracted by the exhibit which it seems like a a masttodon or a mammoth probably mammoth
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and it's by the mammoth but it totally ignores the structure. So this is a very
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large structure. It seems like it's an atrium with with very slender columns uh
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three three stories, four stories maybe. uh the eye does not look at it. So
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architecturally I think it is wasted entirely and there's something strange uh uh
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facing us on top of the mammoth but nobody looks at that. I don't know what that is but but people [clears throat]
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are looking at the mammoth 98%. Oh is working now. Yes.
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And and uh an can you say something? Is it working? Yeah. Okay. So you take over an
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I can't tell. No, no, what you said is absolutely right. I think it's really important that the non-conciously
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exactly what Nico said. You can't find the entrance. It's going to be more stressful to say where do you enter
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here? Is this for people or is this a storage center? You know, what is this building? It doesn't celebrate the uh
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art and history of the place like it could. Um, and then the fact that the main main view is so high up on the
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building, you're going to need to have a drone to get up there. [laughter] You know, it's not.
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And it's a very large it's a very large building. So the the larger the building is, the more important it is to to find
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the entrance. Right. Right. It's it's sad. There's not enough detail. It's much too blank.
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Blankness makes us anxious. And so you're going to be stressed entering this building.
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Look at this. It's really wild that the intense spots are, as Nico's pointed out, are really high up. Um, right.
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This is so interesting. what what what um the vast people taught me, visual attention software is what it's called.
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It it was invented in 2011. It came on the market at part of Photoshop in 2020. What they taught me is the first three
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to five seconds a human looks at anything, it's exactly the same as a monkey. Age, gender, um history, doesn't
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matter. The first three to five seconds we look at things like a monkey. And uh monkeys would be pretty confused here.
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[laughter] [snorts] Okay. some some more. Yeah. Here.
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And what we see here is what I see architects doing all the time. And I see they do this all the time that they'll
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put they'll design something and to make it look attractive, they put lots of people, often women not wear wearing
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summer clothes usually uh around around the building. [laughter]
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And and so when you eyetrack it, it goes right to them. So that they the the people really doing the the marketing
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for the firms know they have to have people in them because they're not going to be looking at the building they're designing.
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We had a first year instructor tell us to put a sexy woman in the center of the rendering and Right. Exactly.
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will be good. Love it. What is strange to me is that what I see
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in front on the wall, I think it's an abstract sculpture
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and nobody looks at it, but they look at the mammoth and they look at the people.
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Yeah. What is that thing, you know? I mean, there's nothing wrong with it. It has some color, but the eye refuse to
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look at it. Now, this is very strange. It has nothing to do with architecture. It's too dark. It's too much in the
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shade. Okay. So, another rendering uh I mean
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another um um analysis. Yeah.
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No, we we had this already. Yeah, that might be it.
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Well, thank Alexandros for doing this call for us. Yeah. Yeah. Alexander was fantastic and unfortunately he could not make it
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today. No, let let's see the the the the analysis. Yeah. So, we had this.
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Yeah. Okay. Let's take a break. Uh let's invite Dimitri
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who I think uh you know give him a chance to defend this building
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or not. It does look like the type of building
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that would win a lot of architecture awards. I I I haven't seen the floor plan and you guys are judging the
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building by renders at a particular vantage point. I I'm sorry. I don't know
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enough about this building from what it's shown of three slides of render. I I I just can't. I'm pretty sure if this
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is published, there is a floor plan that we can all take a look at, see what this building is about, maybe even elevation
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section. I I you work by three renders. You're
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looking at you can't see the scale of it like look how small the people are compared to the mass. Not even a real food and you don't even
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know what the ingredient is and I'm supposed to tell you this is a bad food. I'm sorry. I I don't know what what I'm
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supposed to say. Vitri you're invited to say what you want to say. There's nothing that you're
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supposed to say. I'm going to say you show me three renders of a building that hasn't been built. We haven't seen any of the
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drawings and you want me to say it's a good food. You say you want me to defend it?
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No. The you know, you know as much about the building as we do.
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Today is the first time we're seeing this and Alex was ran these uh VAS scans
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this morning. So, you know, you have all the information we have. So, we're not tricking you into anything. I just, you
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know, wanted your We have enough information to uh critique. Well, at least I don't anyway. You for you it's all visuality
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software AI and we're good. I I'm sorry. I have uh much more uh how do I say a
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little bit more on the uh the nuanced way to look at buildings and judge and
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critique it. [snorts] Okay. Well, you know that's fair enough your honest immunity. We appreciate
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that. I am sure that most people walking by this pretty um
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important street in Kito won't have the floor plans but I can tell you by the
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public backlash against this project that people are very
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a they agree upon the fact that it is not um
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mixing well with the surrounding buildings which can I add to that I think this was a big
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point right punch that people have a bad negative reaction to it. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong. How
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bad was the reaction to Bill Bao by Frank Garing? Initial reaction.
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Uh, immediately we're not talking about Bil Bao. We're talking about this new building for Keto Ecuador. I think
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you're trying to introduce irrelevant arguments here.
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As you say, K. But can we can we entertain the idea that it's irrelevant? But again, you're you're you're speaking
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on the public disapproval outcry of this building that hasn't been released yet,
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hasn't been finished, and I don't even see a floor plan. But people hate it because they're driving by. Is that what
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you said? I don't think No, people hate it because it's a public money. It's it's a like a really huge
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investment of of the Ecuadorian people's money. I understand. So I think the money will always be issued uh anywhere
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that's not privately funded. No, I that's understandable. I I'm not here to I'm not an economist. I'm not here to
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argue about the money. But what I'm trying to say is right now the public outcry is they don't like it. There's a
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disapproval. Hasn't been finished. And I'm trying to I'm trying to put this frame this here. Again, I I I haven't
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even said the approval of this building yet. All I'm saying is I can't judge it because I didn't have to see the drawings yet. But getting back to the
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public disapproval, how many project that is universally liked? Again, not Yukia and all the classic lovers who
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hates modern building like but universally liked building that was initially hated by the public
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during the the viewing. Here's the winner. I don't think I don't think Bill Bao I
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don't think Bill Bao had that situation. Bill Bao was accepted as a piece of
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urban sculpture from the get-go. I never heard anybody say anything negative
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about it, but at the time I was a practicing modernist, so I probably
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didn't hear a a a peep. No, there was a there was a lot of aqua. People hated it. What are you talking
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about? This was not liked at the beginning. It got it is now universally known as a
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balo effect because had a tremendous effect. eat this regardless of whether or not
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Yeah, it's like a train wreck. It's like a car accident. The lockers block. You think this is a train wreck? I'm
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saying has it was it did it get a public disapproval when it was released and it was absolutely yes. People did not like
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this project. They they they didn't understand it and now it is universally it's a it's a iconic stop for people who
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tour. There are tourists who looks at icon. This is one of them.
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I I I I tried very gently to prevent us going to Bil Bao because um an important
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Spanish architect Javier Fenika Sallaya from Bil Bao
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defended the notion that the Bilbao effect is phony. It's all manufactured by the local press and uh so uh you know
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it's it's a controversy. I I don't think we should use that as a justification
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for this proposed building in Ecuador. More nuanced conversation. It's not a
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justification. What I'm saying is should that be the sole reason why this building is we disapprove it or it
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sucked and we don't like it and and visual eye movement says it sucks or can
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we just wait on a little bit see more of it? Well, unfortunately, we don't have any
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material. So, you know, Nico kindly got all the material available from Ecuador,
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openly available, and send it to us, and we made the uh um um the renderings. Can
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we back uh um can we go back to that building and um Ara, can you put up a
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comment? There was a brief comment that we uh we did not answer. Okay. As
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someone has been crafting a framework and design around identity, a sense of place in architecture, this building
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does not reflect Latin America or Ecuador at all. This building is a shame. Okay, that that's the person's
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opinion. Well, Latin America has a um centuries old history of um history of
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of colonial and uh Baroque mixed with art nuvo.
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And of course this is a um a a rejection of all that. However, Latin America also
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has built-in rejection because every Latin American country has uh turned its
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back on this wonderful heritage of of buildings and has created modernist
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architecture and they think it's great. So Ecuador just wants to catch up with with Brazil and Argentina and and
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Uruguay and Paraguay. So the you know I think this is a shame but but uh the
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rejection is also part of Latin America uh way of thinking they they feel
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inferior and they want to catch up by by copying what's fashionable in uh in New York, Boston and Paris.
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The blankness of this walk where's where is this provision coming from that Ecuadorian government want or
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people want to catch up? I I'm trying to understand this. This is this is my personal opinion
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based on my long many years interaction with Latin American architects. Zimitri
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can you be specific Colombian Ecuadorian a Brazilian I it's quite of a vast
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dialogue I if you look at you know like Brazilian we have you know Oscar Nemiah very modernist very popular among uh but
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that's a mixed bag depending if you like socialism or not but but it's Wait wait wait wait the mit the
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m the m you're mixing things up now I don't like Nehemiah and he was a communist but he that has nothing to do
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with his architecture. He's a Brazilian icon. How could you not talk about Brazilian architecture? We we don't like Nehemiah. We we wrote a
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paper analyzing some of his iconic buildings in Brazilia. They are terrible
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as far as when we do the eyetracking. Okay. So So we don't like Nemar but it's not because he was a communist. So you know
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let's not bring in the politics. Okay. So where is the Brazilian part of the they want to catch up to modernist
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and minus and ask? Well, we just do a Google map of of Rio
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de Janeiro and um yeah, it's full of monstrosities. You know, the Brazilians
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are full of monstrosities and you know, next to those Nemire has class. I grant
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that. But so the new stuff that the Brazilians are building is just hideous. and and they are trying to catch up.
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I'm going to say something about the Bill Bao that you might not like. Nikos,
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this first of all, I've always held Frank Garry in in relatively high esteem
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because I've experienced many of his spaces and they really are good.
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Number two, I do know something about the modern stuff and I know something
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about fractality and I have a sneaky suspicion
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and it depends on the angle because modernist buildings only
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photograph well from certain points. Um, traditional buildings do not
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photograph well. You need to experience them. But there might be in here enough
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fractality to give you some kind of sense. Although
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many of the close-up shots are pretty horrible. I'm I'm throwing out a you know,
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I don't know. I haven't been there and I have a sneaky suspicion I won't like it. Were you there? Did you hate it? Well,
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uh, what I know about it is that is interesting is that the museum directors before the building opened, they
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realized, as you just pointed out in the previous building, people wouldn't be able to find the front door. It wasn't
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obvious where it is. So before the building opened, this is crazy. They commissioned Jeff Coons to do a
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permanent giant sculpture of the Yeah, that one. Yeah, he had to do that. They had to
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have that in place and it's floral and so it changes how it looks all the time um in place before it opened because you
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couldn't tell where the door was. In addition, I think that's a problem. Traditionally, this is neither here and there. A lot of
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international museum has a key stone pl uh project in the center of the building
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entrance. It's common tactic to draw corrupt. That's that's not how how the lube used to be. You'd come in and you see Venus
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demo, but still you didn't need that. There was a general a general entry. Excuse me, lady and gentlemen. This is a
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special debate because Nikico from Keto Ecuador alerted
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us to this new proposal for the museum. And we're wasting our time talking about the the you know the the Guggenheim
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B but but it's similar in that they couldn't find the door. So they had to make a giant sculpture to be able to
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find the door. That's interesting. And then something else happened. I heard that when people walk around the
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building often people get held up. There's crime around the sides of the building because there because there
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tend to be more vacant. So it can be dangerous around the sides. Yeah. It's not in it's not in a an
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active part of town. This used to be industrial. Also I think the Bilbo Bao effect is over. People are now
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Yes. saying that it's gone. So you maybe it worked for a generation.
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uh but uh you can see that it's isolated on water, highway, whatever.
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What I mentioned earlier is that Javier Fenikasa, one of the top traditional um Spanish
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architects who is from Bilbao said that the Bilbao effect was never in place. It
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was all hype. It was all hype. It was on. You may believe it, you may not. But I'm I'm telling you about Javier.
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The Walt Disney concert at all here is actually Let's Let's get back. Uh uh Ne has not
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yet given his opinion on the new national museum in Kito, Ecuador. So
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Near, please. This is a museum. [laughter] Okay.
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Arab show show the show the VAS scans to New York. I just want to say I I think
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you want to give it a shot. I I because you only see three slides of render. You want to like throw in the hat. I think
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maybe you want to explore this a little bit more after all. It is a winner of your your cultures building. I I think
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you want to give it a little bit more. No, no, it's not a winner of his cultures building. It's a winner of
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modernist architecture culture in Ecuador. This is a winner that they it's going to
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build. What I'm saying is it's going to be built anyway. Why not, you know, check under the hood before uh you want
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to throw throw it in the tow. It's going to be built regardless. I Oh, it's not built yet.
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No, it's not built. Yeah. Won the competition. Oh, okay. Good, good, good.
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Public backlash. I really were making comments on it as if it was it was built and a bunker. It doesn't
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look like a museum. It's a really pathetic building. It has no joy. It's got no grace. What the hell? Come on,
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give it a break. Do people competition among who did anybody
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submit? Who were the judge? It was completely rigged to win for a modernist to win. It was not actually an open
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competition and 99% of competitions are not because of the the the way that you know
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you're very lucky, Dimmitri. you belong actually to a huge majority of professionals that are trained just like
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you and don't ask questions about the product. So there it is. You're you're
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blessed. You know there there's some some biblical saying about the blessing of of this sort.
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I think that near just before it looks like it it doesn't look like anything really. I
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thought it was maybe a I didn't know what MVNA was. So I thought at first it was some kind of a bank building. Then I
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thought, well, maybe [laughter] this is the a government building. Well, maybe it's the Department of Defense,
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you know. Let's show some. Then Oh, I have to say this. The openings on this on the upper opening
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and then the little opening. It looks like it looks like Mighty Mouse. It has a Mighty Mouse look to it. Do you see
31:10
that? I don't think that this view is accidental. Um,
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so God bless whoever did it. Also, completely disjointed from city fabric.
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You have to walk through hundreds of yards of nothingness to get there.
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You know, where is it? Maybe you want to like give us a little summary of what they're at least saying
31:33
about the building. What's the concept? Just tell us. Is there a concept? Are you straight out
31:39
of Minecraft? Who cares? Can we Who cares? It's a It's an It's a stupid object that obviously
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can't function as a museum beyond the architectural um
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that was written about it. I can tell you what it means to to to the nation if
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if there is such a thing as the Ecuadorian nation. But it is meant to be
32:03
um the place that houses a plurin national identity which is the Ecuadorian.
32:09
There's many nations within Ecuador and there's indigenous groups in the Amazon,
32:15
there's in the coast, there's in the Andes, there's, you know, a huge past 14,000 years worth of of beautiful
32:22
pieces of, you know, ceramics and gold and stuff. And uh it is meant to
32:28
represent the prelur nationalism of of Ecuador in in a way which is are you kidding?
32:34
Yeah. I mean it's a monolith. So there is nothing more than a singular vision there. Is is that the competition requirement
32:41
or is that the concept of that building? It is it is the purpose of the building.
32:46
If just beyond you know its mission statement it's clearly how Ecuadorian
32:52
see it. Then then there will be a announcement saying this is how this building met that requirement. Can we
32:58
read that please? If you wish yes I can find it. I don't know how much
33:04
it's a description of the project. 12 years ago there was a competition for
33:10
a Guggenheim museum in Helsinki and there was a winning project and the community came out and said we
33:16
don't want this and they fought against it and it didn't end up getting built. Uh so hold that thought because that competition has whole different uh uh uh
33:24
uh nuts and bolts around our profession entirely. But we'll go back to that this
33:30
one. This one how based on the requirement how did their description say it met that requirement and why they
33:36
were chosen? And if if you wish, Dimmitri, I can read
33:42
what the firm says about I can tell you the name of the building is called Echos
33:47
de Sol, which means literally echoes of the sun. And they say um since the
33:54
backlash, they explain the building and they say architecture, I'm translating as I go,
34:00
has a relation, a special relationship with the sky and the sun.
34:07
You only have to see their pyramids, escal scalinated pyramids in in the
34:13
tolas of Kaskki which is a a architect a anthropological site or that and they
34:20
reference the temple of Ingapirka. These are very ancient
34:26
pre-Colombian pre-Colombian pyramids. Uhhuh. With that same spirit, the sun is
34:31
protagonist in the new museum of Ecuador. National Museum of Europe. A box with patios. They describe it this
34:39
way. I'm paraphrasing, but a box with patios with holes excavated and with
34:46
golden walls because of the sun. A true
34:51
box of light and shadow which opens the city to the imposing Andian
34:59
landscape. Final period. I see. Okay. I I see that an uh is ready
35:06
to make comments. Well, I I think the verbal stuff is great, but it doesn't really work in
35:13
reality. It's it's it's quite a it's quite a great uh advertising scheme they
35:18
Thank you for translating it. happened. So, so an you made the comment to the
35:24
thousands of people watching this because you kept laughing
35:30
during during Niko Nikico's recitation. The does what he say make any connection
35:37
of this building to the sun or to the pre-Colombian architecture or is it just hype? Well, but what it
35:45
does connect to is way modernism works because modernism is aboutite. It's
35:50
about getting a talk out there. Modernism is architecture. You got to do a good, you know,
35:56
a good talk. So, I can see that an architecture school, it would have worked. [laughter] Oh, yeah.
36:02
This is the National Museum of a poor country that's going to spend an enormous amount of money to build this
36:08
thing. But there's I'm gonna I'm gonna say, let me add something. I So that description
36:15
didn't sound quite right. I again I don't want to throw in the towel. Maybe
36:20
there's some uh not the most flattering way to describe their project. Maybe it was more elevately done on their boards.
36:28
U normally when modernists talk about figurative translation of their ideas,
36:33
it's sounds horrible. Sun, moon. Yeah, this again that's amateur [ __ ] But uh
36:40
it it does have some interesting quality, right? It it has these large uh uh uh uh structure that you know
36:47
receives sun at a very a particular strategic direction. I I'm pretty sure
36:52
somebody was looking at that say, "Hey, there's something to this. There's some vantage point." So I see I I don't even
36:59
know. I sort of haven't seen the drawings. I can see why something is working instead of just saying this this
37:05
is a nonsense, right? But it, you know, I got to read
37:11
more of it. I got to see the drawings. I got to see the diagrams. Well, that's all we have today.
37:22
I can add one thing. This um illusion to the sun coming up made me think that
37:29
probably what we see as yellow is probably um pando, which is paper thin
37:34
gold. No, don't believe it. say it's not enough. [laughter] If it is, it's it's not that the sun
37:41
doesn't even hit on that um direction on that on that facade, so it's sort of
37:48
wasted. Okay, Nico, uh how uh organized is the
37:55
opposition to this building? Because you said the public doesn't like it. It's fascinating what's going on right now in
38:03
reaction to this announcement of the project of this project winning because
38:09
architects across many different styles and disciplines and even landscape
38:15
artists are really um with with very few exceptions are organizing. There is a
38:22
change.org oric petitions which usually amount to nothing. But but there is a
38:28
lot of hope within the people around um to to make this not be built to to make
38:37
sure it isn't built. I'm sorry, but I am just astonished and an
38:42
architecture lover. So I'm really excited. Yeah. No, no, Nico, I did not hear you correctly. You said that architects are
38:50
organizing against it. It is usually the public that organizes against such excuse me as architects and more
38:58
importantly the public. It's quite fascinating. Even very important
39:04
comedians in the public sphere are are making a case against it and there is a so many
39:13
memes about it in the in the public debate and everyone is talking about it. It's like the type of of a conversation
39:21
you can strike in the street with a stranger because everyone's awake. Okay. Well, look look uh our our little
39:27
group here did a scientific study, the visual attention scans to show that uh
39:34
this design is deficient as far as we can make from the two pictures that were available. So, we did a scientific
39:41
study. I'm sure that people in Kito do not have this material because it was just done today by us and we are uh
39:50
experts in the field and we're not in the mainstream of architecture. Now, how
39:55
can you let the public of Kito or the public of all of Ecuador know about the
40:00
studies that we have showed in 10 minutes of this um of this uh video? I
40:06
um would love to have uh each one of you including you Dimmitri um state what you
40:14
what is your first impressions of of this building uh through science your
40:19
scientific knowledge Nikos and an of course your experience near as well as
40:25
as as Ava that this would be amazing and maybe we could cut these into little
40:31
shorts to publish in the media so that people can also have beyond their instinct of what is beautiful and not
40:39
have this scientific backing would be humongous and and understanding um that it's an
40:45
avoidant building. That's what Nico's called it. And when you do the eyetracking studies or you do a VAS, a
40:50
visual attention software study, you learn that non-conciously our brain is hardwired to immediately attach or
40:56
immediately move back from a building. And this building, you could tell in the VAS study, is avoidant. So you want your
41:02
public buildings to be approachable, you know, you want them like to be
41:07
approachable. That's how what you really want, especially if you want them to last for generations, you know, and so
41:13
this is an avoidant building. So there's going to be a cost, a social cost to building it. And it'll be more stressful
41:19
for the public and visitors from other countries for people now and 20 years
41:24
from now to approach it. It will always be more stressful. It's avoidant. Yeah. Show, don't show the building,
41:31
show the eyetracking studies. Okay. So, I I I fully support what an says
41:37
with uh additional information. This is just a visual attention scan
41:42
that was done this morning for today's video. There are five or six other
41:48
scientific tests that you can do on this building. the the image and the
41:53
different approaches that will that will measure the reaction of the body to this
41:58
building and I I'm willing to bet five five cruiseros that they will they will
42:04
give the same results that the visual attentions can did. Okay. So if if the
42:09
government of of Ecuador is really serious, they would uh hire an for
42:14
minimal fee to perform these studies, you know, and supply her with many
42:20
different views of the inside and and all the different sides. This is scientific analysis which was not done
42:26
before this building was approved. And if the public is fighting against this
42:31
building, they don't have the most important ammunition they need to make their decision and make their case. And
42:38
we're presenting that now. Look at this the the scan that we had. And the
42:44
nobody looks at the building. The building is just this huge only people look at the hole.
42:49
They they look at the people and they look at the crosswalk um and they look at the the parking lot,
42:54
right? And so it's going to be more stressful and that has a health impact. It will be less healthy for people to
43:00
approach this building. It will be more stressful, more anxiety, more cortisol in the blood, more stressful to look at
43:07
and to approach. I can Can we uh can we be very careful
43:13
about using the phrase scientific? I I listen I we all have degrees. We know
43:19
certain connotations and certain specific language we have to use. Scientific is a very broad term. What
43:24
does that even mean? Can we just talk as an architect here? We don't use scientific study during a critique or
43:32
review of building. We don't do that. That's right. That's right. You don't because there's nothing. But now you can. But now you can. This
43:39
is absolutely nothing. Getting back to what I do know how to do and how to judge a building through
43:45
plans through its concept through the ideas. So we can see what the
43:50
Yeah. But you do but you don't check your own
43:56
concepts. You don't check your own terminology. You don't check your own jargon. You have never
44:02
21st century critiqued yourself. You have never critiqued yourself for the
44:08
actual meaning of the terminology you use. I have a PhD in this stuff. I have
44:15
gone through it and [clears throat] I can tell you this with great knowledge.
44:21
Now, I'm not going to give you any examples, but choose one single jargon
44:27
word that you use, one and show me the meaning of it.
44:34
Seriously, sustainable is the big one that's thrown away. And near you, you're being a
44:41
little harsh on the Midri. He's here as our guest. He participates in the discussion. Okay, we don't agree, but
44:47
you're being too harsh. Not Dmitri. Dimmitri is not at fault here. The pro the real problem is a
44:54
system that does not reflect. It's not self-reflective. I personally
45:00
I personally do not think there is a uh there's a merit that we have those systems and thank God that we have both
45:06
modern and tradition and classical architecture for us to enjoy. I I I but getting back to this building and again
45:13
it's not my building. It is not our building. It's Ecuadorian building. juror has chosen it. But at this moment,
45:20
there's no way I have any amount of information enough for me to even remotely say this is a valid.
45:26
That's exactly our point because when you look at it,
45:32
you don't see anything. [laughter] Now, this is true. Not enough information. We're looking at
45:38
it cooked. Exactly. Exactly. This here's a building that is not telling you anything
45:45
and therefore you cannot the building's not telling you anything. You're looking
45:50
at it. You're not seeing anything because you need all these other all this other documentation to evaluate it
45:57
and and you're not you don't have the the maybe not the practice that you
46:04
haven't been taught this. I want to see the location of this building in Kito. Can you show us a aerial view of the
46:11
location please? Yeah. Because I am I guarantee that this
46:18
abomination not only is a horrible ridiculous piece of concrete but also sits in such an
46:26
isolated location that I don't know what it's supposed to be except for being a
46:31
an aerial bunker of some sort. Sometimes what you see is what you get.
46:38
cigar cigar. And the architecture firm is from Madrid. They're not from Ecuador. They
46:44
they entered it from Madrid and won the competition. From where? Madrid. Oh, Madrid. Huh?
46:51
Yeah. Okay. Don't mention it. We don't want to get into any lawsuits here. [laughter]
46:58
Oh, not the name of the firm. Okay. No. No.
47:03
We had we did a quick analysis. So unlike what unlike what Dimmitri
47:09
said, we did a quick analysis on on freely available pictures on the internet.
47:14
So Nico, you have some more information. We're we're looking at the aerial now.
47:19
What I said to Demetri, what I said to Dmitri, I'm really really
47:25
sorry. I know it came across very harsh, but I actually stand by what I said. So I'm
47:31
asking you, but you can say me next week.
47:36
Select one word from your lexicon and explain it to me as if I'm a
47:44
six-year-old kid, please. I don't have a lexicon. I'm sorry.
47:50
Near, you're engaging in a debate with Dimitri, our good friend. We we want to
47:56
discuss this building in the few minutes we have left because Nico would like to go public with this information and
48:03
translate some in Spanish. Okay. I think when humans begin broadly
48:08
appreciating the pursuit of experimenting itself rather than solely the successful outcomes of it, that's
48:13
where it began progressing more exponentially. I'm sorry, I don't understand the the grammar here.
48:20
Give us an example of this. Are you speaking about accidental discovery and
48:26
experimentation or are simply creating experiments for the
48:31
sake of it? You spent 500 uh years in alchemy. What was the outcome?
48:37
All right. There was a lot of experimentation going on. Um so maybe some thinking behind the experimentation.
48:43
Maybe let me interrupt for 30 seconds. I want to say something in Spanish.
49:12
identific. Okay. So, this is for Spanish speakers
49:18
for a future future interview in in Spanish if they're interested.
49:27
Yes, Nikos, that's very helpful. And if if you are up for it,
49:37
that would be very helpful as well. Oh, okay. So, here's the Google map. So,
49:44
where is that? Um, the white thing. I'll show you exactly right where's
49:52
mouse is where right in that corner. Yeah, that's a nice site. Don't
50:00
right here. Can you markuador?
50:07
It seems to be pretty urban site. I don't know. You said it was isolated.
50:13
Yes, it is. Look at it. It's all paved. You don't have a single tree close by. Very sight. That That's I I live in in a
50:21
very metropolitan city. That's more than mine. Yeah. No. No. Well, look, I I'm sorry to
50:28
say that the design for the new building did not improve any of the pedestrian
50:35
life around the building. It just sits there like a big box store. They they they had all the space they could have
50:42
done of some wonderful uh restructuring. Have a cafe in a restaurant. I think
50:47
I'll just go for that if if you hate it so much. No, they they they had an opportunity.
50:55
they they they miss the opportunity to create pedestrian urban fabric that
51:00
spreads out and and encloses and unifies that block at least
51:07
around the museum and the museum is isolated. So that's isolated. This is really a car centric
51:12
area. I mean what can you do? It's really [ __ ] up. But it would be right
51:21
to have a courtyard. Yeah. where some of the rooms go around, right?
51:27
Every other building is very rectangular and modern. I think it would fit perfectly there. I I again, keep in
51:34
mind, I don't even know what design is. I just from urban planners perspective. I don't know what you're seeing. These
51:40
are all sheds, meaningless sheds. If you're a huge parking lot, I'm pretty
51:47
sure the street, but it looks like it's a very urbanized site.
51:53
high-rise buildings. There's um the inspiration of the
51:58
National Museum which Neurus had brought up before which that type of thing would articulate the
52:04
the sidewalk. [clears throat] Can we can you mark this up? Ara? Um yes.
52:10
Can I mark it up too or just you? Um I could show you I can send you a
52:16
screenshot and um have you share your screen screenshot?
52:21
I can't mark up. Listen. Draw a line along the along the curved edge. Do you
52:28
see my arrow on this? Along this edge. Yeah. Draw a line, you know, 100 90°
52:37
um curve along here, along that edge. You already have these buildings that
52:42
have these curved edges. So, let's let's do a let's do a quick
52:48
design for this building. Can uh um Nico, do you have the program with you somewhere? Can you find the program for
52:54
the building? Oh, hands back. The program for I'm not familiar with
53:01
what you mean by program. How many square feet or square meters? What space? What spaces?
53:07
A list of the rooms and the areas of the rooms. They don't call it a program, a brief.
53:15
Do people still use the word program? in architecture it's yes still a program
53:20
but the general public brief so I what I saw there was a curve a big
53:26
curve first thing I might have done was caught that curve and the way I
53:32
think about architecture I would have produced the building that all the others are imitating around
53:38
the corner so I would have taken the curve first of all number two I would definitely have
53:45
had a series of courtyards I'm not sure what the climate is, but I do
53:50
Oh, Ecuador has fantastic uh nice climate throughout the year. Has the best climate in the world.
53:56
So, I would do a series of courtyards rather than stacking the whole thing. I
54:01
would have done a series of courtyards around which you have rooms for exhibit
54:08
and other such things. I mean, this we're not talking here. If you need to really go up, probably two stories,
54:16
maybe three, but there's no good reason to go more than two stories high.
54:24
I think the program is probably given on the competition. You can't just create a courtyard because you want one.
54:30
I'm sure they fulfilled. Actually, a courtyard actually a courtyard is an architectural element
54:36
that you use because you're a good architect and you think, do you know that for a fact? because
54:41
I've done I've done pretty a lot of competition. They're very specific about uh uh uh program requirements.
54:47
But do you think they would say no courtyard? I don't think they would say no courtyard. I don't know that. That's what I'm trying to say. If you want to
54:52
judge it because it doesn't have a courtyard, then maybe there wasn't one a requirement.
54:58
Oh, I see what you're I see what you're saying. No, what I'm So, you got Yeah, definitely wasn't a requirement,
55:04
but why not have one? It would be nice to have. Let me interject Let me interject
55:09
something. If the government of Ecuador invited Dr. Nir Buras to build the
55:16
national museum, Dr. Nir Burus will say, "I want a courtyard." And they will say, "Yes, you can make a courtyard because
55:22
it's going to be fantastic." And it will draw people and their families and children and they will go to the museum
55:29
and spend the whole day in the courtyard. It will make it a living a living piece of urban fabric, which the
55:35
present uh the present design is not. It's just a building stuck in the middle of nowhere. A good thing forian people that this was
55:42
open design competition. So the people and other people choose instead of your prescription. I'm assuming it's people
55:49
of Ecuador. Maybe not the one that you like picked the project. I I wasn't one of it and I would have given my best
55:56
shot at what what I thought, but I can't judge. But it was Ecuadorian people who picked the project. Well, look, while I
56:04
agree with Dimitri, we have no information. We don't. Well, we know this edge had that big it
56:09
was like a big cube pllopped on here. But embracing this curvature when you walk over this way, that might have been
56:15
a very nice moment. And then you're you're giving people I would have done along that whole thing,
56:20
a long colonade. Yeah. So that you while you're driving, you drive past it because you're never going
56:27
to get there by foot. You're going to be driving past it. and and create a twotory, three-story
56:35
facade that would have inspired the other curved buildings on the other sides
56:41
because [clears throat] they stand there for no good reason. It's really just the the car radius for high-speed travel
56:49
which gives you those those curves. It's it's a pretty horrific interchange.
56:56
Um, and then you work the building inward. what they were trying to do was to bring the outside in. And I think
57:03
that they were doing it in ways they probably identified the good places from
57:09
where you have the best views around. I I'm sure they did
57:15
uh and and that they created whatever holes in the building that would bring
57:20
the sun in to a museum building indirectly so it wouldn't destroy the
57:26
artifacts. I'm sure they had that in mind as well. But [clears throat] moving forward
57:32
through this thing, I think it could have had some charm, some grace. Yeah. How many square meters is the building?
57:39
Uh the open project um proposal is for
57:45
anyone to design a building of 25,000 square meters. The entire site is 13,000.
57:54
Wait, 13,000. So, it's 25,000 constructed area
58:01
for the project and 130,000. Uh,
58:07
so you're talking about having some kind of a cycle of of rooms. Each room could
58:13
be another one of the cultures. they open up to uh uh to uh patio number one,
58:20
patio number two, patio number three. You might have a a fourth patio
58:26
associated with the entrance and the gift shop and the and the coffee shop and all those kind of things. And
58:32
because of the the odd way it's done. Um is there parking? Is there a parking
58:39
requirement for it? I am having trouble uh finding the
58:45
actual brief with this type of information. I can only see the the
58:51
I I'll keep looking. All right. So, all of a sudden, you're looking at something that, for example,
58:58
I would elevate the whole building by a floor much like the Getty Museum does in in
59:05
Los Angeles. The old Getty, the new Getty is, forget about it. But the old Getty was raised up. You had parking
59:12
underneath and a beautiful garden on top. So [clears throat] that you can do a garden in in eight inches of soil with
59:19
trees. So you can do it. They pulled it off. Um, so I think there's a
59:26
possibility here with multi- patios and and and going in um with patios with
59:34
different character uh with different water elements, with different landscape elements so that you are actually in an
59:41
environment where you want to soak in all this sort of uh Ecuadorian culture.
59:47
Can I propose like a maybe a hypothetical instead of saying hey this is I would have done a better job I did
59:54
this what would be since this is universally not liked by the public
59:59
apparently doesn't all cry then what were they expecting or preferred in
1:00:05
other words this was what they kind of had in mind but definitely not this okay so how about you answer your own
1:00:11
question seriously and and no offense please that that was a genuine question that
1:00:17
No, I can't answer that because that's I don't I want to I want to know the answer to that. What was it? Guess guess give us your best guess.
1:00:25
I I I I'm sorry. I don't know what you're I'm asking him a question and I you can't ask me a question while I'm
1:00:32
asking Near. You're playing tricks with Ditri. No, not playing tricks.
1:00:37
What I'm saying is Dimmitri, can he answer the question or not? Are you going to keep talking? Near Boris mentioned this building, the
1:00:44
the Getty Museum. Not the one uh not the new one. Well, this is this is part of the Hold on. Do you not want to answer that
1:00:50
question or can you answer that question? No, I I think Nico is best placed to answer the question. What does the
1:00:57
public expect for the new museum? Thank you. I I um lean with near on this subject
1:01:05
because I can tell you what I would expect, but I can assume that what
1:01:11
anyone would expect across every culture is that their National Museum reflects
1:01:17
them in some way. you know that that they could see themselves and their and
1:01:23
their greater self in in a building that is supposed to carry the most precious
1:01:29
treasure. Yes. But but but Nikico, yes, the Mitri posed a good question.
1:01:34
What what have you read in the press about the what the building that the
1:01:39
public wants will look like? Has anyone expressed we want the building to look like this to resemble an existing
1:01:47
building? I I can answer that question in many ways. So, so I think to a great extent
1:01:54
the society of Ecuador is really needs to ask these questions and they don't
1:02:00
really have yet many of the tools to understand what perhaps would go through
1:02:05
other than visual you know renders right so people have been demanding that all
1:02:12
the um postulants to this prize be shown to the public and h the the state has
1:02:22
done it and what's been discussed is more which of the different parcelins is
1:02:29
better. There is an overwhelming agreement that the winner this one echo
1:02:37
is the worst out of out of all the p the the other postulants which is funny but
1:02:45
to be people are demanding better landscaping on on another hand is a very common um
1:02:53
topic of conversation is the fact that there's no landscaping that it is a monolith they don't like that it is a
1:02:59
monolith They don't like that it they feel it doesn't represent flurry nationality
1:03:06
and they don't like the fact that it is all cement and that the um technologies
1:03:15
used for the design of this building are absolutely all of them cement while
1:03:21
there's many other technologies that are being championed in in Ecuador. What else do people don't like? Um
1:03:30
people don't like people often call it ugly and um and sort of one of the most
1:03:38
common memes about it is that it clearly looks like they didn't take enough time
1:03:45
like it's unfinished. Okay. Well, look, we're running out of time, but I have a suggestion. I have a
1:03:52
suggestion to Nico. In the past, my friends have created a counterproposal
1:04:00
where they ask the public and the public says we want this to look like this. Instead of saying we don't like it, we don't like it, we don't like it. We want
1:04:07
this and this and this and then architect friends of mine will create a counter proposal so that you see this is
1:04:14
what the public wants. That is not does not exist now. So I recommend that the
1:04:19
the public do that. That's not a fair competition. That's ridiculous. But getting back to that
1:04:25
example, I think you mentioned some great stuff. It needs to represent the Ecuadorian people. I think that's I
1:04:31
think that's outstanding characteristic you need to have. But here's the question. What is that exactly? That's
1:04:37
an old colonial building. You are you are building out of a colonial style of somebody who colonized you. Do you want
1:04:42
that? Modernism colonial if you like. Modernism is 100% colonial style. It's a
1:04:49
German style. You're you're colonizing Can we please guest answer the question
1:04:55
please? It wasn't directed at any of you. What what do you think that is? What do you think this image of that it can be?
1:05:02
It doesn't have to be architecture. Show us a you know what what would that be? What what's the image of Ecodorian that
1:05:09
it represents the people? I think I think you could go for many
1:05:15
different ways of representing it. On one hand the technology, right? There is technologies that are from here such as
1:05:20
these types of roofs, these types of bamboo and wood structure to an extent.
1:05:27
They are probably from elsewhere and as but they are as well here. They are
1:05:33
combined vernaculars as as most everything is but um you could also go
1:05:38
with just shapes of the patterns that represent you know God perhaps. There's
1:05:44
the pyramid in in the in many there's many pyramids that have many different
1:05:50
visual languages that represent these things and perhaps you know perhaps the
1:05:55
outcry wouldn't be as strong if we would have seen shapes such as as the ones I
1:06:02
showing here of Kotaki I believe those are or yeah can I ask a follow-up question to that
1:06:09
what you describe is a a native culture this new museum is Is it meant to
1:06:14
describe the native culture or today's busy 21st century globalized Ecuadorian
1:06:21
nation among South America? Which one is? Is it native? You know, the the the vernacular, the the the the wood and and
1:06:28
the making, which I think is great, by the way. I, you know, if I was a juror, I would definitely put that into the requirement. But is it more about the
1:06:35
fact that it's in the middle of a busy, progressively growing city and this new museum is going to add more to that?
1:06:42
Which one is it? Is it more native, more contemporary towards the future?
1:06:48
What it is meant to represent? I mean, what it represent? Using time and culture. I'm sorry.
1:06:54
Native is your guest. Answer the question in it wasn't directed at you.
1:07:00
I know. It is it is a money grab. This is very important to understand. And I think
1:07:06
many of the these types of buildings that look like this tend to be money grabs. But uh it doesn't represent much
1:07:13
at all because I mean even if the current government were um you know more
1:07:21
leftle leaning or more right leaning it would have you know perhaps more
1:07:28
strength than what this actual government represents which is some bizarre version of neoc colonialism and
1:07:35
Ecuadorian a negation of you know the actual you know reality of Ecuador.
1:07:42
So, I don't know how to answer that question other than what it's supposed to represent because
1:07:47
I I do not know there is no future to Ecuador clearly
1:07:53
unless we accept that we need to take care of our own.
1:07:58
You know, I like I like them. I like the pluralism and the the pluralism is important. I like the
1:08:05
pluralism and that involves also the Spanish culture that came to Ecuador and
1:08:11
all the other European cultures that came and did leave a ma a a vast
1:08:16
imprint. I put a link in the I put a link in the uh chat window for you to take a look at if you want that these
1:08:24
these cultures and produced a an Ecuadorian
1:08:32
approach to materials to to topography
1:08:37
the Ecuadorian culture in some absolutely amazingly beautiful
1:08:42
ways. So, I would venture, let's take
1:08:49
all of the above. We're going to have examples of the vernacular, traditional stuff, historic, native, whatever,
1:08:56
whatever within the museum one way or another. But is that the structure of the museum?
1:09:01
I would take as the structure of the museum the most loved buildings in
1:09:07
Ecuador, the 10 most loved buildings in Ecuador and work from them. So this will be the
1:09:14
11th most loved building. This would be my approach and those loved buildings.
1:09:21
This is Mexico. Yeah. Yeah. The most loved the most loved buildings
1:09:28
I guarantee there. One of them is Spanish Baroque.
1:09:34
One of them is some kind of a a a a monastery or a convent somewhere all
1:09:39
white with some some stone details. One of them is a neocclassical bank building
1:09:46
or department store from 1905. One of them is some church in who knows
1:09:54
what style and so on and so forth. Lady and lady and gentlemen, we're we're
1:10:00
out of time. I would like to make a concluding remark and I want an then because we didn't let Anne talk too
1:10:07
much. One concluding remark. The architecture of Ecuador is full of the
1:10:14
most gorgeous color. This proposal is just dead gray. There's
1:10:20
something contradictory there. It does not represent Ecuador Ecuadorian culture because it's no.
1:10:25
Where's all the color? Wonderful color and form and form. There is a lot of
1:10:32
form in Ecuadorian architecture both in the vernacular and even more so
1:10:41
in those crazy Europeans that arrived there and settled there.
1:10:48
It it's both. It's making places for people to thrive in,
1:10:53
not creating concepts for other architects to understand.
1:10:59
And modernism is 100% colonial when it is applied in any country other than
1:11:05
straight ahead European. This is very polarizing. There are people [laughter]
1:11:12
objectively measuring beauty is absurd science. Don't fall for it. No. We have written scientific papers measuring
1:11:20
beauty idea what beauty is if you make that statement you actually don't understand
1:11:25
the aesthetic experience say something all of those who have PhD is that the way you argue your PhD you
1:11:33
don't get it and therefore I'm right is that how you argue your points really
1:11:38
[laughter] no we we write scientific papers it probably sounds that way it's the end
1:11:44
of a long week it's been a very very trying week for me. So I'm really sorry and we can't hear you for your closing
1:11:51
statement. Oh, we can't hear you.
1:11:56
Oh, okay. I've got questions for all of you, by the way, for when for next time.
1:12:03
Okay, closing statement. We're over time. Can we talk about the uh the the
1:12:10
modernist or contemporary architect's favors novelty?
1:12:15
Yeah, exactly. Whether or not they're good, they're good and bad or or detrimental. Have you guys talked about that? I
1:12:21
brought that out three weeks ago and I I've been super busy. I couldn't attend. Maybe can we do that next time or?
1:12:28
Absolutely. Chris World 6388 says, "The first role of architecture is human health. Then sustainability and
1:12:34
neuroscientists support the neuroesthetic ideas." Okay, so we're wrapping up. Thank you
1:12:39
for the very special guest, Nikico from Keto Ecuador from turning us on to this.
1:12:47
The building you get at the end is serves the Ecuadorian people. Absolutely.
1:12:52
Not bloody likely. Thank you. That was Thanks so much, guys. Okay.
1:13:00
Peace.